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Re: FLASHBACKS! not the groovy 60's!

Posted By: T.E
Date: Sunday, 26 October 2008, at 7:56 p.m.

In Response To: Re: FLASHBACKS! not the groovy 60's! (SVP Neon Equipment)


> Darryl,

> At the present time I have 2 used Transco 15
> KVA bombarders with matching SuperChokes and
> new Variac's to go with them. Also, a 100
> amp contactor if needed. Let me know if this
> is something you may be interested in.

> FWIW, his "theory" about age vs.
> wisdom is amusing to say the least. I have
> met some young people that are as sharp as a
> tack with little time in the trade and I
> have met some who have been in the trade 30+
> years who know very little. To say that
> someone is too young to know anything is an
> admission of ignorance IMO. I would like to
> hear his "sales pitch" on the
> safety of using his manifold. I'm sure it
> begins with "properly grounded".

> Unfortunately you will not find any stats.
> Those who have zapped themselves using metal
> manifolds and have lived to tell about it,
> won't. They are usually too embarrassed and
> now own a glass manifold.

> Voltarc used to have someone on staff who
> knew someone personally who got 3rd degree
> burns on their hand while touching their
> metal manifold when a flashback occurred. In
> fact, in anticipation of legal action the
> Voltarc guy was called in to inspect the
> manifold installation to make sure it was
> "properly grounded". It was, but
> it didn't stop the operator from getting
> seriously hurt.

> A good thought, but if someone has him
> convinced about the "safety" of a
> metal manifold it may be in vain. My
> experience has been that if someone has
> their mind set on something and you try to
> talk them into something else, they usually
> make every effort to find fault with
> whatever it is that they don't really want.
> Just something to consider.

> Perhaps you can get him to consider this:
> All the main neon equipment
> manufacturers/suppliers offer Pyrex
> manifolds, not metal manifolds. It is
> certainly easier and less expensive to put
> together a copper/brass manifold than it is
> a Pyrex one, so you have to ask yourself why
> most offer Pyrex when metal is cheaper and
> easier.

> Those who offer (or used to offer) metal
> manifolds are those who have little or no
> experience making neon and who have limited
> experience in processing neon. I won't even
> get into them understanding anything about
> conductance and speed of evacuation vs. the
> cool-down time interval.

> Of course there is the occasional
> do-it-yourself neon person who will go to
> the hardware store and buy a bunch of
> copper/brass fittings and put a makeshift
> manifold together, but it's manly because
> they do not have the ability to make their
> own Pyrex manifold and are too cheap to buy
> a decent one. They certainly don't know
> anything about achieving and maintaining a
> clean high vacuum. They also lack the
> knowledge of knowing what will happen to
> that soldered/Teflon taped together thing
> they claim they have no problems with.
> (Sorry if I am offending anyone, but it is
> what it is.) I cannot count how many metal
> manifolds I have replaced with a Pyrex one
> and I have no doubt the other's (EGL, Daco,
> Transco, et al) have similar stories.

> Aside from the obvious safety issues, there
> is also the issue of contamination. The
> inside of a copper/brass manifold will
> eventually oxidize. Any residue mercury that
> gets into a copper/brass manifold will
> amalgamate to the interior surface. Over
> time this will develop into a real problem.
> The only way I know of to clean it out is
> with nitric acid. There may be other means,
> but none that are what I would consider
> reasonably safe. Further, you will never
> know if the manifold is thoroughly clean
> because you cannot see the results. The
> nitric acid will also attack the metal, so
> it will create an interior surface conducive
> to trapping more contaminants. And if the
> manifold is not periodically cleaned, it
> will progressively get worse just like a
> glass one does if it is not cleaned. The
> difference is you can easily clean a glass
> one and you can see the results.

> In the end, if someone is dead set (pun
> intended) on using a metal manifold it
> should be made with stainless steel with
> valves and fittings that are rated for high
> vacuum use. You don't get those things at
> the hardware store!

> Mark

Hey buddy,
The only concern you should have with a metal manifold is proper ground if you have this then commen sence will keep you safe, i have a stainless manifold and was skeptical at first but would use this over glass anyday goodluck and be safe. a 20+ year bender.


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