The Neon Bender's BBS!

The Archive no longer allows posting but search of hundreds of previous posts are available
If you have any questions please contact us.

[Please Read]

[ View Thread ] [ Return to Search ] [ Read Prev Msg ] [ Read Next Msg ]

Re: FLASHBACKS! not the groovy 60's!

Posted By: SVP Neon Equipment
Date: Thursday, 23 October 2008, at 8:25 p.m.

In Response To: Re: FLASHBACKS! not the groovy 60's! (Darryl Thompson)


Darryl,

> I have started helping him with torches and
> eventually I will help him on a choke and
> bombarder once I find a larger replacement
> for my repair system.

At the present time I have 2 used Transco 15 KVA bombarders with matching SuperChokes and new Variac's to go with them. Also, a 100 amp contactor if needed. Let me know if this is something you may be interested in.

> The problem is that he has done the
> Craigslist deal and purchased a used
> "shop built" BRASS manifold after
> being warned of the metal. The guy that sold
> this to him preached that it was safe.
> Included in this preaching the guy
> challenged me by telling him I was too young
> to know anything and was wanting him to
> spend more money on a glass one.

FWIW, his "theory" about age vs. wisdom is amusing to say the least. I have met some young people that are as sharp as a tack with little time in the trade and I have met some who have been in the trade 30+ years who know very little. To say that someone is too young to know anything is an admission of ignorance IMO. I would like to hear his "sales pitch" on the safety of using his manifold. I'm sure it begins with "properly grounded".

> Im in kinda a hope stage that other benders
> could just give a little insight on here to
> help the "safe" sway on not using
> that brass POS. I just wish there were stats
> of injuries involving metal manifolds.

Unfortunately you will not find any stats. Those who have zapped themselves using metal manifolds and have lived to tell about it, won't. They are usually too embarrassed and now own a glass manifold.

Voltarc used to have someone on staff who knew someone personally who got 3rd degree burns on their hand while touching their metal manifold when a flashback occurred. In fact, in anticipation of legal action the Voltarc guy was called in to inspect the manifold installation to make sure it was "properly grounded". It was, but it didn't stop the operator from getting seriously hurt.

> I may just give him my repair manifold (SVP)
> as an X-Mas gift if it helps.

A good thought, but if someone has him convinced about the "safety" of a metal manifold it may be in vain. My experience has been that if someone has their mind set on something and you try to talk them into something else, they usually make every effort to find fault with whatever it is that they don't really want. Just something to consider.

> He has the book and has read through it. The
> problem is that its a paper source and not
> practical experiance. I know there are a few
> people besides myself that have used a metal
> manifold in the past. Per sey "Real
> World" experiances help the most in a
> sway but to back logical descisions on a
> "told you so" black and white is
> best. I just dont want any chances on a
> "told you so" scenario.

Perhaps you can get him to consider this: All the main neon equipment manufacturers/suppliers offer Pyrex manifolds, not metal manifolds. It is certainly easier and less expensive to put together a copper/brass manifold than it is a Pyrex one, so you have to ask yourself why most offer Pyrex when metal is cheaper and easier.

Those who offer (or used to offer) metal manifolds are those who have little or no experience making neon and who have limited experience in processing neon. I won't even get into them understanding anything about conductance and speed of evacuation vs. the cool-down time interval.

Of course there is the occasional do-it-yourself neon person who will go to the hardware store and buy a bunch of copper/brass fittings and put a makeshift manifold together, but it's manly because they do not have the ability to make their own Pyrex manifold and are too cheap to buy a decent one. They certainly don't know anything about achieving and maintaining a clean high vacuum. They also lack the knowledge of knowing what will happen to that soldered/Teflon taped together thing they claim they have no problems with. (Sorry if I am offending anyone, but it is what it is.) I cannot count how many metal manifolds I have replaced with a Pyrex one and I have no doubt the other's (EGL, Daco, Transco, et al) have similar stories.

> If you have had "live" experiances
> with a metal POS help / comments are still
> definately wanted.

Aside from the obvious safety issues, there is also the issue of contamination. The inside of a copper/brass manifold will eventually oxidize. Any residue mercury that gets into a copper/brass manifold will amalgamate to the interior surface. Over time this will develop into a real problem. The only way I know of to clean it out is with nitric acid. There may be other means, but none that are what I would consider reasonably safe. Further, you will never know if the manifold is thoroughly clean because you cannot see the results. The nitric acid will also attack the metal, so it will create an interior surface conducive to trapping more contaminants. And if the manifold is not periodically cleaned, it will progressively get worse just like a glass one does if it is not cleaned. The difference is you can easily clean a glass one and you can see the results.

In the end, if someone is dead set (pun intended) on using a metal manifold it should be made with stainless steel with valves and fittings that are rated for high vacuum use. You don't get those things at the hardware store!

Mark


SVP Neon Equipment

Messages In This Thread

[ View Thread ] [ Return to Search ] [ Read Prev Msg ] [ Read Next Msg ]

Neon Bender's BBS! is maintained by Kenny with WebBBS 5.12.

This page Copyright © 1996-2005 Krypton Neon